This week, I got to sit down with Tannaz Banisadre, COO of Greenlots, a company that was acquired by oil and energy behemoth Shell almost two years ago. Obviously, with all that the oil industry has done in the past to sabotage the adoption of EVs, we were skeptical…
Banisadre seems genuinely interested in getting EVs off the ground. Though she doesn’t own one herself, she’s knowledgeable about the process of getting an EV, dealing with electricians and HOAs.
Perhaps most interesting to me is the industry’s timidity when it comes to the Plug and Charge (ISO 15118) standard. This allows you to pull up in your vehicle and just plug it in without any apps, RFID, or credit cards. For us here at Electrek, this is mandatory on cars and chargers if we want to make things easier than gas charging. Tesla has had Plug and Charge on Superchargers since its inception.
I won’t say that Banisadre has Greenlots going all-in on Plug and Charge (nothing short of “we’re going full speed ahead and won’t stop until it is ubiquitous!” is going to satisfy me), but at least she knows what it is and its importance. Also, I learned that Electrify America gets its Plug and Charge software from Shell – which if I was a conspiracy theorist, I would be wrapping the tinfoil around my head as we speak. Anyway, check out the interview below, it’s just over 20 minutes:
Full transcript of the interview follows:
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Great Hi, first of all nice to meet you.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
So obviously, we’re you know, really big into charging networks and the like. I’m just curious like. You know, getting bought by Shell like what? What is that like from a you know a small private network standpoint.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah it. It offers a lot of opportunity.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Oh, uh-huh.
Tannaz Banisadre
Its really exciting. You know you you can look at the downside. You can look at the upsides, but I think the upsides tend to outweigh.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, you know. And if I talked to a lot of the people who, you know, have been here like since inception. You know which I haven’t, but you know you. You see that people look at this and say, OK, well, we went from scrambling for funding all the time. Which is, you know, I don’t think to having resource having access, having breath, you know, and also having the ability to collaborate in a way that you would not necessarily have had before. So you know, I find that it’s been really great. I mean it in terms of what it brings and any opportunity it brings to the table.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
So in that regard, you know I’m, I’m assuming there’s like lots of upgrades coming down the Pike. One of the big things I wanted to talk about is the plug and charge standard, which you know EA is kind of working on in the US, and there’s a bunch in in in Europe as well.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
How/what is that gonna look like for you guys? How you know what’s the timetable and all that stuff?
Tannaz Banisadre
So I mean, if I think about Greenlots specifically, we are 15-11-8. Eliminate ready, you know software active, we are there. We work with our partners to kind of develop that, but it isn’t ecosystem play. So even if we have the software that is ready to go and it is 15-11-8 enabled already.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Uh, ready.
Tannaz Banisadre
You know we need everyone to be on to be in the same page, so we need the vehicle manufacturers to be there. We need, you know, the heart of the charging hardware players to be there and we are, you know, seeing this come together. Like you said, Electrify America, one of our partners that we work with on this, you know, we’re vehicles like that. I can come through where we’re doing this. We know that most of the vehicle manufacturers are looking at incorporating this into their next generation view. Evs so. I think it’ll be a few more years before we hit critical mass industry wide. But you know, definitely we are in a position where we are working with our partners to see you know how we accelerate that transition. We also, you know, we have an innovation lab in LA and we do a lot of testing out there to related to 15-11-8 to bring it all together.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yeah, I’d love to check out the innovation lab. That’s sounds super cool so.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
You know just to.
Tannaz Banisadre
Exactly.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Go, uh, maybe you can coordinate with a USC football game. I went, I went there, so any.
Tannaz Banisadre
Cool.
Tannaz Banisadre
I went to Full disclosure.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
What’s that?
Tannaz Banisadre
I was like I will keep Delhi so Full disclosure on that one. You know we might have.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK, cool.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yeah, all right, we’re not gonna talk about that anymore.
Tannaz Banisadre
3rd battle.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
But so specifically like if I had a Porsche Tycan or a Ford Mustang, Mach E or even the rivian or the upcoming VW ID 4 which is going to have a software update.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh-huh
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
When could I plug into a greenlots station and expect to have plug and charge working?
Tannaz Banisadre
was it. For example, we provide the software for electrify America.
Tannaz Banisadre
Right, so you are already plugging into a Greenlots station in a way.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, so you know we don’t have as much. You know we’re not. We don’t have as much of the public facing like Greenlots network. We have a few of those sites, but a lot of times what we’re doing is enabling the networks themselves. The retail sites themselves, so etc. So we’re kind of behind the scenes in that.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yeah.
Tannaz Banisadre
So right now, yeah, if everyone else is on that same page and we can do it.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK, so uh, so you can do it at EA station, but like a station that’s branded Greenlots like the ones on the New York State Thruway. I don’t think those have that capability, I don’t.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh-huh
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah, not yet.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yeah, and is there a timetable or a rollout plan or?
Tannaz Banisadre
I mean, a lot of that will do with how you know, I I don’t know the exact timetable that I have to talk to our head of product to see what he’s thinking, but I would imagine a lot of that is related to hardware. Look at you know, charging hardware. It should that we would have to get to that point. And also when is there enough again critical mass that that becomes?
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Uh-huh
Tannaz Banisadre
You know or where? When is that? If it is enough from a driver perspective, you know ’cause I, you know it is a big thing about convenience, but it’s also just not available in most instances. I mean, how many people are driving a Mach-E in that I can not yet. But is that something we will look at for sure?
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
yeah, I mean from our standpoint and you know some other entities I’ve talked to, it’s kind of a push or pool like are you going to be pulled into it or you gonna be? Are you going to be the people pushing it? So I, you know, I hope you’re thinking about it. In that risk you know that way a little bit more.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
But uh, you know it was really nice, for instance, to you know with the rivian.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Just to plug it in and that the people at Rivian didn’t even know they had plug and charge like capable. Yeah, so for you know for me it was like hey, did you know this is using plug and charge and they were like had never heard of it? Don’t know what that is but it’s working.
Tannaz Banisadre
Oh, really.
Tannaz Banisadre
And I think a lot of that will, because also with the charging OEMs like the charging, you know hardware providers we are seeing. Again, newer models are coming out that are 15118 enabled, but what you’re likely not going to see and this is not specific to us, but just generally you know people aren’t gonna rip out hardware.
Tannaz Banisadre
Functional hardware, it’s like anything else, right? You wouldn’t throw out a perfectly good car and till you had to replace it, or there was a reason to replace it, right? So I think as long as you know so you have to kind of wait for that cycle to churn as well. And that goes for any industry and I think that’ll be part.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
So, so it’s a hardware. It’s not just a software update, it’s like a hardware. You know you need to put in a, you know a a reader or whatever.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah, the components have to sit across the board.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
The handshaker yeah. OK so I live in New York. As you probably know, evolve New York. I think their partner with you guys.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
And building out a state network.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
How do you guys see that? How do you think about is that a future thing? Should you know California, New York, etc. Build out their own networks?
Tannaz Banisadre
So that’s an interesting I. I mean, I don’t. I wouldn’t be able to comment on who I think should build it. Do I think we need networks? Yes, right? Think we need to get to that point where ultimately, you know.
Tannaz Banisadre
Best way I can think of it as you know, Field of Dreams, like if you build it they will come right. The only way to get to the point where you get people comfortable enough to transition is to create a situation where it’s comfortable, right? People are coming from a mindset of what it is. You know that customer experience. What’s convenient. What’s easy, what is reliable, and I don’t think psychologically people are entirely there yet. Plus, they are going to need if you were going a long distance, you know, just like if you want to fuel your car, you need to know you can charge your car.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
There.
Tannaz Banisadre
So do we need network? Yes, absolutely do I and I, and I think we’re seeing just even from you know our customer base and everything else and what we’re seeing in the market. We’re moving in that direction, right? Where there is increased emphasis on infrastructure because people now realize that we need it? Would just plastic. Who is the best place to build that infrastructure? It’s really hard to say for me. I mean, I couldn’t give you an answer on that.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK, yeah, it’s it’s a good question because I don’t know that New York State has all the experience that they need to.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
To keep those networks running and and I don’t know if they know what they’re getting themselves into, so it’s it’s interesting.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah, and I mean, it might even be different state to state right? ’cause everyone has different rules, laws, experience, you know priorities so.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Aspirations.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah, exactly.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK, so back to the so. Initially I I’ve kind of thought of shell and Greenlots is kind of like alright. Well this is going to sort of replace the gas station, but it’s really like that’s not a one for one kind of change. How do you think about that? Like you know, are you guys thinking about the convenience store aspect of the gas station or the you know the other? How does that work for you guys?
Tannaz Banisadre
Exactly.
Tannaz Banisadre
I mean, we look at it.
Tannaz Banisadre
Across the like, holistically, right. I mean people are gonna wanna charge at every aspect. They need to charge at home.
Tannaz Banisadre
They want to be able to charge at work. They might want to charge a target or Whole Foods, or Costco, or ever happens to be. You know, they might also just be on a freeway and need to charge somewhere and go to the bathroom, and therefore that’s where you know that’s you know, your prime real estate in terms of gas stations. Although really like gas station bathrooms, but that’s a different story but but the idea is I don’t think that there is a like you said it’s not a one to one, and I don’t think it’s an either or. I think it’s and so I think you need to look at all of those if I look.
Tannaz Banisadre
If I consider the broader shell strategy, it really is looking at all of those. We do residential charging in a lot of instances in right now in Europe. You know, that’s one of our strengths in Europe, and it’s something we’re looking at, you know, elsewhere. So residential charging. Yes. How do we do that? You know, we look at on the go. We have, you know, we surfed 30 million customers a day through our like global retail like global like kind of gas station network, which is an insane number if you think about it.
Tannaz Banisadre
One of the largest retailers in the world, the footprint that comes with that. The access that comes with that. That’s kind of inherited is fantastic, and because that network has been developed so much based on where you have football, where you have traffic, where people are coming and going, and they’re already well placed, you know geographically, so that is something that you would look at and then it goes back to you know. But also, what’s the customer.
Tannaz Banisadre
Experience. What’s that convenience like and convenient option is also that you do want to do it at some sort of destination at some sort of retailer at a mall at. You know whatever it is and so for us, I don’t think we eliminate any. We look at what does the customer require and how do we best address that?
Tannaz Banisadre
Now, does that mean that everything is going to exist forever? Cuz it’s it’s the industry changes so fast that you know it’s really interesting to see also how customer expectations change, but we try to keep pace with that and use that to drive what we do and how we do it.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
So one one of the hardest areas of EV drivers to to solve in terms of charging is is the folks that live. You know, in a city they have street parking or you know, maybe they have parking in a garage that doesn’t have EV chargers. How’re you guys? What’s that?
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah.
Tannaz Banisadre
I think.
Tannaz Banisadre
That’s me.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK, how do you guys? How do you guys sell for that? Do you put in street Chargers better slow? Do you have ultra fast chargers like gas stations that are? You know currently in use how to? How do you guys think about that?
Tannaz Banisadre
A combination so you know shell as a whole, so not really. Not specifically, Shell is a whole acquired a company motricity based. Hey, which does lamppost charging right? So that’s your on street lamppost. It’s slow. I think it’s mainly L2, but it’s one option, right? And that is for basically like places like London where it’s compact and like you say there’s no real opportunity.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, if I look around my stream SF, there’s not a lot of lamp posts, not the same. You’re not in the same way. I don’t think you could get much of that going on it, you know, so that’s one option we look at exactly what you say. How do we give customers an opportunity to get in and out without it being a hassle? How can I go charge my car for 20 minutes and come home? So that’s where your ultra fast charging comes in and that could be at a variety of locations.
Tannaz Banisadre
We also talked to different players in market to see what they’re doing and see how we can partner and enable them so you know, for example, there’s a company called Envoy. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with them and they’re based out of LA.
Tannaz Banisadre
And you know, we’ve partnered with them to be their software provider. They work a lot to make charging almost an amenity for, let’s say condos and buildings where you know you can’t have a charger at your parking spot or in your garage so they look at. Also, you know creative ways to do this, so I think we use a lot of lateral thinking to see how do we best tackle this. Depending on your location and what the actual friction or challenges at hand.
Tannaz Banisadre
And because also, the solution that works in London doesn’t necessarily work in San Francisco doesn’t necessarily work in New York, you know, and that we have different options based on where we’re at.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Uh-huh
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Uh, so one one thing that’s kind of interesting that’s, you know. Obviously as peak demand Super Peak demand makes car charging a lot more expensive. If you can kind of taper that, or you know, shift that with batteries and solar.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
That reduces costs quite a bit. Are you guys? How are you guys thinking about that? Or are you guys working on solar or battery technology at all?
Tannaz Banisadre
So we do a lot with the energy management side of things because I’m completely with you. Think the combination of batteries with solar. I mean it provides such an opportunity. You know, for purging industry, I mean you look at it, reduces installation costs, reduces operation costs, you know, addresses, addresses grid constraints, grid reliability smooths out. Kind of the variations that we see in in the power load, so you know, we have, you know. So we as greenlots have energy management software that we work with.
Tannaz Banisadre
And then we work with a variety of other providers to implement that on site to get to a point where we can combine all these factors to give you that. So again, I’ll mention our lab, which you will come see, but you know, in that lab we’ve done a lot of testing on this, and we’ve now started piloting at different locations, so we have, you know, and every time we do a pilot, we step it up a notch so you know. In the Netherlands we work with Shell retail on one of their four courts or gas stations, and you know with our European charging colleagues new motion.
Tannaz Banisadre
And we have basically.
Tannaz Banisadre
You know it’s a site that does ultra fast charging and we didn’t do any great upgrades and instead what we’ve done is use battery energy storage systems. We use our energy management technology and we bring all that together. Now the next one we’re doing which will go live in 2022 is in Singapore, where we’re working with their energy management or energy market authority.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, to basically do something similar but with on site solar PV.
Tannaz Banisadre
And so we’re integrating all that and we’re and that’s going to get rolled out as a pilot on 3 shell stations, and it’s really commissioned by the Singaporean government as a recognition for them. That this is something that we have to deal with. You know me in California, yeah?
Tannaz Banisadre
Rolling blackouts or anything like that. It’s not going away anytime soon, so you know you don’t want that to define your charging experience. You don’t you want that continuity of experience to be guaranteed, even if you know we have to block out because of a fire, or because the heat is too high or whatever happens to be going on at the time so.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Right?
Tannaz Banisadre
You know, so I. I know I’m going on a bit of ramble this, but it’s something I have like a lot of energy for, but it you know, there’s so much opportunity in being able to address this because there are so many sites where the grid just can’t be upgraded or it’s so competitive from a cost perspective. There are so many places where you know the issue with moving to renewable energy source, you know, is the grid reliability and the fact that you know what happens at night. If your solar, the battery energy storage system, the energy management software.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
No, it’s fine.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Right?
Tannaz Banisadre
These are the things that enable us to do that.
Tannaz Banisadre
And then when you look at like the doors that it opens and what it can help us do, it’s really fantastic. So it’s something we do put energy and focus on. It’s something that I think is incredibly important.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, and so we will continue to work through that, but I think you know, like you said, there’s so much potential here in terms of what we do and and, and I think we’re still very nascent.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yep.
Tannaz Banisadre
In getting.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Absolutely so in in Germany, I think there’s been some recent legislation passed where every gas station must have a charger of some sort.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Part I don’t think it particularly makes a lot of sense to have a level 2 charger at the gas station in the middle of nowhere.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
So they didn’t really think that one through terribly well.
Tannaz Banisadre
They didn’t specify at least. Yeah, they gave Luke.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Right?
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Right, and hopefully the gas stations you know aren’t just trying to.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
You know, check out check box. They’re thinking about their possible customers, but are you guys looking to lobby local, state, national governments to kind of get the ball rolling there in terms of of, you know, not necessarily making them compulsory but like.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
You know, just getting them out there in any way shape or form.
Tannaz Banisadre
So we work a lot so it, you know, kind of going back to what I was saying over. If you build it will company will come in and we do a lot in terms of any incentive incentive. Isation really needs to be both supply and demand side and until now you know what we’ve seen a lot of is demand side, incense position, right? So you get a rebate if you buy Tesla. You know that kind of thing, but the supply side is really only starting to get a little traction. I feel. And and that’s something that absolutely worked with. Now. What does that? What form does that take, you know, is it mandating it on?
Tannaz Banisadre
A gas station site I don’t know, I’m not sure that’s necessarily the right way.
Tannaz Banisadre
Hey, uh, you know it might be in some markets, and again, if it’s.
Tannaz Banisadre
Written in a way that doesn’t give you a lot of loopholes and actually really doesn’t improve the customer experience. But do we need something like that? And do we need incentivization and that form? Yes, we do. Do we need that supply side addressed because you know you have a chicken and egg situation where you have a lot of people who because the industry is growing, you know the utilization is not where you would need it to be to make something like this economically viable. On the other hand, until you build it, no ones going to buy the cars.
Tannaz Banisadre
Make it economically viable because of all the range, anxiety and all the other concerns that come up. So you need help to get that ball moving and that help has to come from both sides.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Right?
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yeah.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK, so, uh, maybe maybe we’ll end up with one kind of final question and caveat like are you? Are you an electric vehicle driver? Do you? Are you in in the game?
Tannaz Banisadre
I am working with my hoac to get in the game because I could not find a solution however.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK.
Tannaz Banisadre
At my parents house, let’s say I am because we were one of the first in the Central Valley of California, where I grew up. My dad was the first person to buy it on lecture cubicle, so we’ve had a Tesla in the house, or a form of electric vehicle, or I think it was since the first model, apps.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Oh wow, it’s like almost a decade now.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, and.
Tannaz Banisadre
Almost a decade now and we had to call in an electrician from the Bay Area because no one in the Central Valley of California knew how to upgrade the electricity in the garage to be able to charge the car. So we actually had to import electricity like the electrician to get us there so.
Tannaz Banisadre
I personally at this moment do not. I’m working on it. I’m literally in a debate with my issue right now, but and I’m trying to and going back to the lateral thinking I’m like, but I have solutions for you. Can you let me like introduce them and maybe.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
I know it it becomes hard at that points to.
Tannaz Banisadre
It becomes hard, but you know historically I happen.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Great and then so one like tell us about what you know you guys are thinking about next year or two. What kind of surprises? Or you know lateral moves or what kind of stuff that we’re going to hear about? You know obviously without breaking embargoes.
Tannaz Banisadre
Like what am I left talked about? Yeah, exactly. What am I allowed to talk about? Yeah, I think you know what you’re gonna see is you’re gonna see an acceleration of some of the stuff you know we’re we’re already talking about. So things like the energy management right? So you’re going to see us moving more into that space you’re going to see a lot more noise around that because it’s something we recognize is important now again it’s it’s a chicken and egg in terms of the market, traction and the the you know the hope is that the more we demonstrate the value of this and the potential of this.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yeah.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
General.
Tannaz Banisadre
That you know you you create more of a pull forward as well. I I think you’re going to see us.
Tannaz Banisadre
More heavily working with fleets, which is not very surprising, and I think you know what’s the latest projection I saw as 107 million.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh fleets in EV fleets by 2030, which is an insane market production versus like the passenger vehicle version, so will work a lot more with that and will look at expanding the infrastructure that deals with that will look more and will be working more with high powered charging, you know. So if I think now.
Tannaz Banisadre
You know, like you were saying, a lot of what we do across the board is L2 and we want to make it, you know, start progressing to the next level because I think that is going to be the markets becoming mature enough for that.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, you know basic things rolling out basic reliability, availability, front roaming, which we you know, just rolled out our roaming network. But how do we expand on that? How do we make the driver experience that much better? Every step of the way? Plug and charge will be a part of that too, obviously.
Tannaz Banisadre
Uh, you know and.
Tannaz Banisadre
Ideally just expansion.
Tannaz Banisadre
You know like we wanna? I mean, we have as shell a target of 500,000 charge points by 2025.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Oh wow, that’s a quite a few half a million, and that’s globally right.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah.
Tannaz Banisadre
Globally, but it’s a large number and you know.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
OK.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yeah.
Tannaz Banisadre
We got to get there.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yep.
Tannaz Banisadre
We’re on it. You know we have big ambitions, but in the best way, right? Because again, if you can get to that point, guess what more people drive.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Yep.
Tannaz Banisadre
So that’s how you change that.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Great, well thank you so much for now as I appreciate it. And you know, I said Electrek were were on board so.
Tannaz Banisadre
Yeah, by the way I have to say I love the commentary you put in your articles, like the little the little sidebars.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Ah.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Thank you.
Tannaz Banisadre
They will give me a good laugh on or anything, so thank you.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Cool.
Seth from Electrek (Guest)
Take care.
Tannaz Banisadre
Take care.
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Author: Seth Weintraub
Source: Electrek
